Curse

tomcruisejr · Apr 02, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

umm... check your options. It's in there.

Thanks. Good thing is it's 12 minutes til April 2 here so I still have an excuse.

arcanemacabre · Apr 02, 2007, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

Thanks. Good thing is it's 12 minutes til April 2 here so I still have an excuse.

Hehe, np.

Rurik Jangeer · Apr 02, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Anything well loved and used for a long time will be tough to change. My view on GW2 is this: I enjoy hearing about it, but take much of it seriously. Everything we hear can and just might change. If this "emergent complexity" scheme goes into action, I can only hope it's not the way I think it will be. I came back to this game for its complex pvp system. The amount of strategy and build synergy coupled with the need for competent players is something to behold. If they are taking that amazing game and dumbing it down for a crowd of QQ'ers... I don't know. I love this game, and I trust Anet will do what is best for it. Again, it is too early to assume, but what if?

WhiteZombie · Apr 02, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

regardless of how much people complain and doomsay, the possibilities of a more action and context orientated control and skill system in an mmog are pretty interesting.

Rhedd · Apr 02, 2007, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteZombie

regardless of how much people complain and doomsay, the possibilities of a more action and context orientated control and skill system in an mmog are pretty interesting.

Yeah, if you don't actually enjoy the game you're already playing.

Some people do.

WhiteZombie · Apr 02, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Yeah, if you don't actually enjoy the game you're already playing.

Some people do.

i certainly hope you dont greet every new day with such rousing enthusiasm

Caith-Avar · Apr 02, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

There's already skills like that, for instance, Steam. It's just that it's not a "hidden effect". The "hidden effect" is what I'm talking about here. Essentially, everything about the mechanics of the skill is hidden, and with a little experimentation, you can discover other aspects of the skill, be it combos with other skills/conditions, or in combination with certain actions, like running/jumping. That's all I'm saying. If that's too complicated, well then perhaps Gaile's version: Binky's Spelling Adventure is more your speed.

Well, I think I know where you are heading... and at the moment, I'm equally full of doubt as of hope. But with that description of yours... "everything is hidden" means a lot more of interpretation. That means a lot more of language-based errors. I mean, okay. In German, some skill descriptions are horribly wrong, and that there are inscriptions that apply to "Zauberfähigen-Wegpunkte" (spellcaster waypoints) is just plain silly. As are the descriptions of guilt, shame and mistrust - interestingly, the same error has been avoided/corrected for mark of subversion (which, contrary to some beliefs (and the German skill description), behaves EXACTLY like shame, only for life instead of energy)...

well, anyhow... This makes for a lot of confusion. Because while if the description is wrong or full of errors, you still have at least an idea of what it is about. If all you have is an icon and a name - well, if the name has been selected or translated with an error, well, you're...
An example of current skills? Wild Blow, Warrior, without attributes. Loose all adrenaline, unblockable, automatic critical, end stance on enemy. So a heavy stancebreaking move. German translation: "Rundumschlag" ... which, essentially, would be a good alternate name for "cyclone axe". (rundum = around/surrounding, schlag = strike)

Essentially, by hiding all of the other stuff besides the name, it has the same problems as scientific languages. It becomes open to interpretation, which is good, because it is flexible. But interpretation is something heavily affected by cultural, language and social context, so interpretations may vary based on who you are, where you live and what you know of the world.
Working with such skills, in a foreign language or as a foreigner in english, would be like trying to get puns. Language-based ones. Some are translateable, some aren't. And if you take the original, it might still take you a while to get them, even if you're good at that language, because you don't excercise it in daily life as a native speaker, and you don't have the same secondary or tertiary associations/interpretations/meanings.

And, before someone comes along and says: "So, Germans can't play GW2, why should I care?" - Simple. It applies for all "other" languages, it's just that I can only give examples for German. And don't underestimate the foreign language (especially French and German) market in those things.

That's just something that always comes to my mind with this "simple" versus "complex" debate. The idea behind what you're saying is quite nice, though.

arcanemacabre · Apr 02, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Caith-Avar, I see what you're saying, kinda, but wouldn't it be the exact opposite for translations? I mean, take a skill like Heavy Blow. It has a very exact description where if even one word was off, could be taken to mean something completely different.

Heavy Blow:
"Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits a foe suffering from weakness, that foe is knocked down and you strike for +1...24 damage."

Now, let's say in translating, instead of "suffering from", it becomes "they suffer", or something like that. It changes the entire concept of the skill.

Now, my idea is that a skill like this would simply say:

"A mighty swing of your hammer."

That's it. Hidden within it's effects is that it does XX damage, and if the target is suffering from weakness, they are knocked down.

That's simplistic, and hard to confuse even in translation, I would think...

Caith-Avar · Apr 02, 2007, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Now, my idea is that a skill like this would simply say:

"A mighty swing of your hammer."

That's it. Hidden within it's effects is that it does XX damage, and if the target is suffering from weakness, they are knocked down.

That's simplistic, and hard to confuse even in translation, I would think...

Technically, yes. Problem solved, sounds good.
That is, as long as the number of skills is low enough to allow for distinguishing with such easy wordings.
Ah, nevermind. Just wanted to have pointed it out. I believe they will do something good. And much of what has been said "positively" in this thread sounded good so far.

clawofcrimson · Apr 02, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamona interview

gamona: With Guild Wars 2 you're going to introduce a persistent world. How many people will be able to play on one server/shard at a time?

Arena.net: That's not finalized yet but it's more a design decision than a technical restriction, because our technology is able to handle quite large numbers of players. So we will have to put the player cap in a way which avoids both abandoned and overcrowded areas. Eventually, the maximum number of concurrent players is a secondary thing, because of our global player database which allows players to join any server/world they want to. This is a key feature to us, because it gives our players much greater freedom of choice than in other MMO's.

gamona: In Guild Wars 2 characters will be able to jump and swim for the first time. What was the reason for integrating these features and how will it affect gameplay?

Arena.net: In the first place, players get much more freedom and the world feels much more free and explorable. In Guild Wars 1 a character's actions were quite tightly tied to the story and our world did not feel very "living". The ability to jump and swim will inspire players to explore the world more deeply. Of course, there will be a strong story again, but it's more surrounding the world than defining it. So it'll rather be a story inside a world than a world build upon a story.

gamona: Are you going to keep the "8 skill system" from Guild Wars in Guild Wars 2 or at least use a similar one?

Arenat.net: The skill system used in Guild Wars gives us great possibilities to make our game exciting and tactically challenging in the long run. The limitation to eight skills at a time stresses the tactical component and makes it possible to discover and try out new stuff constantly, even for high level characters. For this reasons, we will definitely have a similar system in Guild Wars 2. Unfortunately, I can't give you any further details on this. But one thing is for sure: The basic mechanisms of the Guild Wars 8-skill-system will also be in Guild Wars 2.

some news to put some of us at ease.

http://www.gamona.de/pc/article/deta...08/start-2.htm

Realm of Fiery Doom · Apr 02, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I don't think anybody has metioned this, but...

Looking at the insane amount of builds floating around everywhere, how long do you think it will be before people are posting new "AWESOME DAGGER COMBO!!1!!ONE!!ELEVEN1!!"???!?

Right now, we have people telling you where to put your attribute points, and what skills to take.

Then, we're gonna have people telling us which buttons to press, when and in what order.

There isn't a lot of "finding out" what does what and what is a good combo; I'm willing to give 1K to anybody who has used the 55hp build AND found out about it for themselves, rather than going on a website and doing what it says.

Also, this would kick laggers hard. It's already bad enough lagging, but having a bit of lag or a mis-timed button press can drastically alter what you actually do in game. A split-second can be all the difference between being in the air and standing still.

So I'm saying...just stick to what we've got now.

clawofcrimson · Apr 02, 2007, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Realm of Fiery Doom

I don't think anybody has metioned this, but...

Looking at the insane amount of builds floating around everywhere, how long do you think it will be before people are posting new "AWESOME DAGGER COMBO!!1!!ONE!!ELEVEN1!!"???!?

Right now, we have people telling you where to put your attribute points, and what skills to take.

Then, we're gonna have people telling us which buttons to press, when and in what order.

There isn't a lot of "finding out"; I'm willing to give 1K to everybody who has used the 55hp build AND found out about it for themselves, rather than going on a website and doing what it says.

Also, this would kick laggers hard. It's already bad enought lagging.

you will always have the 'elite' crowd...no matter what. changing 'how' a skill works isnt gonna change that.

Onarik Amrak · Apr 02, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

some news to put some of us at ease.

http://www.gamona.de/pc/article/deta...08/start-2.htm

That article says "summer". Would that mean a northern hemisphere summer? As in mid-year around june-july? Cause that is really different to the Q3, Q4 estimates of other sources.

clawofcrimson · Apr 02, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

anets headquarters is in Bellvue Washington(state) so I'm guessing its 'their' summer. so yes..june-july ish... if our summer here in washington ends up in those months this year.

Darksun · Apr 02, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhedd

Yeah, if you don't actually enjoy the game you're already playing.

Some people do.

Fail. I love Guild Wars. GW2 sounds even better. Some people can't do change, period.

clawofcrimson · Apr 02, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

well... with the gamona statement in mind... it may not be such a drastic change as we were thinking...

I am thinking that we will get a "jumping swimming etc.." version of what we have now... giving more depth to the skills we already have...

I am wondering about wheither or not they will keep 'conditions' though... with the supposed change i can see this system changing.

Caith-Avar · Apr 02, 2007, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

well... with the gamona statement in mind... it may not be such a drastic change as we were thinking...

I am thinking that we will get a "jumping swimming etc.." version of what we have now... giving more depth to the skills we already have...

I am wondering about wheither or not they will keep 'conditions' though... with the supposed change i can see this system changing.

1. Exactly what I thought after reading the article.
2. Nearly what I thought then.
3. What I keep asking me all the time - I hope it will stay somehow systematic as it is now.

Scown-dog · Apr 03, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

it works the way they say it will, I shall personally send them each a fruit basket.

Please! More information on how to win the fruit basket!

AnnaCloud9 · Apr 03, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

Caith-Avar, I see what you're saying, kinda, but wouldn't it be the exact opposite for translations? I mean, take a skill like Heavy Blow. It has a very exact description where if even one word was off, could be taken to mean something completely different.

Heavy Blow:
"Lose all adrenaline. If this attack hits a foe suffering from weakness, that foe is knocked down and you strike for +1...24 damage."

Now, let's say in translating, instead of "suffering from", it becomes "they suffer", or something like that. It changes the entire concept of the skill.

Now, my idea is that a skill like this would simply say:

"A mighty swing of your hammer."

That's it. Hidden within it's effects is that it does XX damage, and if the target is suffering from weakness, they are knocked down.

That's simplistic, and hard to confuse even in translation, I would think...

I'm not in any way bashing your ideas, infact it's nice to see actual logical debate on this.

My thoughts on this idea of yours:

Once the hidden effects are discovered by players, won't there be countless websites to list and 'decipher' these hidden effects (strategy guides if you will), making them not so hidden afterall, and then instead of actual skill descriptions ingame, wouldn't we have notes strewn about on how to execute our 'hidden' moves? I really don't see how this would be any more, or less, tactically invigorating...unless each and every skill acted differently for each and every player.

Sol Solus · Apr 03, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

There are 1434 PvP skills in GW. That's how many skills a competent player has to be familiar with to not be caught by surprise by innovative builds. Long time players don't mind because chapters have hit us one at a time, but it's fustrating for newcomers to PvP. It seems database memorization is another outdated RPG mechanic Anet wants to stamp out. The old skill system will not work if GW2 wants to:

Have small expansions, not whole chapters.
The repertiore of core skills should cover most gameplay styles in PvE and PvP.
Reduce bloat.
If skills are only useful against certain opponents under specific conditions, more skills will be needed to cover all strategies.
Allow players to hold their own regardless of the profession they are playing.
Skills that adapt depending on how they are used allow for on-the-fly strategizing. Perhaps not as in key combos, but against what kind of target, while in what state or stance, depending on melee or range situation, etc.

Example: A monk skill called "Light of Judgement" might heal allies, but burn enemies, and have less effect at range so it becomes a viable self-heal.